What is going on in Bangkok?

[KoratCat]

At the same time, if what you are saying is that the people should decide, I would be very much interested in your opinion
about the recent events in BKK.

Can you see the link? In that case, the PAD seems to say that the poor people elected Samak and he should go... the intellectuals know what is good... So, the rich, in Bangkok, are against Samak and Thaksin, and THEY had the majority at the election, what we called democraty.
Following your statement, what do you think, should the public influence judges? Or should the judicial branch be independant? That's an old debate and I believe they should be completely independant.

It is very difficult in the current legal situation in Thailand to discuss openly about what is going on in Bangkok and in what direction this seems to be going. I found that the most independent and critical discussions are not held in English language and on Thailand-based forums.

A theoretic discussion about judges' tasks will not give any answers to what is happening at the present. Judges are supposed to solve conflicts. They're awarded certain powers for that. But for exercising these powers they need the executive. At the moment it looks to me more like the judges are powerless . . . Some foreign analysts interpret the current movement as heading (back) towards an absolute monarchy. I would not accuse the intellectuals of playing the major role in such a process, rather the government officials, the military etc.

[sebastien]

There are several issues here. Yes, freedom of speech in Thailand has limits.

I was referring to the judicial independence of western countries, following the message of Naam Jai and wasn't referring to Thailand, but the case of Thaksin in England.

[KoratCat]

Anyway, the court (in Bangkok) issued an order and nine arrest warrants concerning the protests at Government House that obviously don't get enforced. Lots of people who are not among the protesters at Government House support the protests now with their own means like the railway strike. What is the court doing about simply getting ignored now? Can they enforce their orders? Or should the judges for their own reputation and standing not better find a way out of the dilemma by somehow listening to the (protesting) public and find a middle way instead of issuing orders that might not be able to get enforced due to massive resistance?

[Naam Jai (?2008)]

PAD," Peoples Alliance for Democracy" want no further constitutional change, they want to control the corruption in high places and it seems they want Samak out.
PAD are the middle class intelligentia, they are not revolutionaries in the accepted sense,but want capitalism with a more friendly face. Considering the exploitation, poverty, lack of a welfare state and social justice in Thailand one could compare them to modern day philanthropists. They do not seem short of money,support or ideas.
They fill the vacuum left by the weak Democratic Party and rightly challenge Thakin's stooges and are not going quietly.The King appears to support them and so does the Army.

The question is how do they become a political force and how do they gain the confidence of the Issan poor without bribery and corruption?

[tubbiguy (?2009)]

What the PAD are doing is not patriotism, not constructive and is certainly not a sustainable or popular methodology to bring about change....it is basically anarchy. Thais just dont seem to have gotten their heads around democracy. If you elect a crook government, you just have to "tough it out" till the next election and then toss them out. Democracy will never work if they continue to elect governments then change their minds several months later and try to get rid of them or if small groups are permitted to indulge in civil disobedience because they wont accept the majority decision. Likewise, the military cant just sit on the sidelines like some adjudicator and step in with a coup when they feel like it. While these elements remain in Thai politics, the country will always be living on the brink of a military dictatorship.
The PAD may well be right in their claims and criticisms, but their current actions do nothing to legitimise their cause .

[KoratCat]

"L'État c'est moi!" (Louis XIV) - "L'État ce sommes nous!" -

[sebastien]

Very bad "French" KoratCat, ( )but interesting topics! Foreigners talking about Thai politics!

L'etat, c'est moi.
(Louis XIV - without French "accents", again I'm not French ! I'm Canadian. I'm as French as Australians are British!)
L'etat, c'est nous (Plural, would be strongly associated to communism, and a vision of politics that I might agree with).

Many questions remains:
PAD doesn't seem to show an alternative. Who will govern this country? Someone strong enough?
Do you really think PAD can stop corruption here?

I strongly believe in "democraty is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried" (Churchill)...

[Naam Jai (?2008)]

What does all this french mean Seb/ Koratcat?
Does it have a relevance?

I see the from the BKK post today that the Rural Doctors call for civil disobedience until Samak steps down. Clearly in support of PAD who also closed 3 provincial airports yesterday. Its getting ugly. Blood has been spilled.The Lawyers Council chairman said the police overstepped the Civil Courts order. The NIDA ( National Institute of Development and Admin ) students
issued a statement saying the government must show responsibility for its "heavy handed crackdown" according to the BKKpost.

I withdraw my comment that this is NOT a revolution
The times they are a changin" What is " blowin in the wind " for Thailand

Having gone this far, PAD are not going to back off now,given their strength in depth and width, countrywide support and impressive organisational skills.

Isn't it exciting?

Seb
PAD are THE alternative.
Yes PAD can stop corruption, or at least make government more transparent.
Where does Churchill come in? He's is responsible for the "Iron Curtain" statement.
What we need here is resolve not the "Shut Out"
Who will propose a round table meeting?
PPP,Democratic Party, PAD, Army and the Crown in the chair
Or is it too late.
It will be if more blood is spilt.

[KoratCat]

What does all this french mean Seb/ Koratcat?
Does it have a relevance?

Louis XIV (Louis the Great of France) is attributed to have said "L'État c'est moi" (I am the state). I used his words in reference to where the attempts of the PAD are going IMO: absolute monarchy. In contrast to that I changed the words a little to the meaning "We are the state" with a question mark asking who might be saying that.

[Naam Jai (?2008)]

"What is going on in Bangkok"
I am ,you are ,we are the state?
What is being suggested here?

[sebastien]

It would be awkward for a Canadian who doesn't know too much about politics in Thailand to suggest anything.
Reference to Churchill was made only for his famous comment about democraty. And I do believe in that.
Who knows what will happen? It looks to me that "compromise" and "status quo" have a lot of power in that area the world.

[Naam Jai (?2008)]

I suggest a referendum would clear the air.

Did you want to replace one corrupt government with another? YES or NO

[KoratCat]

Counter rallies mobilise

The ruling People Power Party (PPP) yesterday moved to mobilise masses in Bangkok and provinces to join counter rallies against the anti government People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD).


Thousands of PAD protesters still occupied Government House for the sixth day, paralysing the administration of Samak Sundaravej, which yesterday also resorted to a joint parliamentary session to try to defuse the PAD protests.

A PPP source said government MPs, especially those in the Northeast, were ordered to organise at least 5,000 supporters per province to hold counterrallies in front of the provincial city halls.

These counterrallies will also head for Bangkok if the PAD did not stop pressuring the Samak government, he said.

"In Bangkok, we've also prepared to enlist supporters to join the progovernment Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship or DAAD."

"These supporters are mainly those working inside industrial estates and factories in Bangkok's peripherals, " said the PPP official.

The progovernment camp also issued an ultimatum for PAD protesters to leave Government House within the next week or else it would step up its counterattacks.

"If they're still adamant, our supporters from all over the country will join forces to help PM Samak to return to his office," Vipoothalaeng Pattanaphumthai, of the progovernment DAAD, told crowds gathering at Sanam Luang.

The progovernment camp also threatened to set the headquarters of opposition Democrat Party on fire as one of its key members is a PAD leader.

Pracha Prasobdee, a Samut Prakarn MP, said more government MPs would join the counterrally held by DAAD to show support for Samak.

"We won't use violence. We will be peaceful and I believe hundreds of thousands of people will join counterrallies," he said.

The progovernment DAAD yesterday held a counterrally in front of Parliament as MPs and senators joined the debate on antigovernment protests.

Besides the Bangkok counterrally, progovernment groups also show up in several northeastern and northern provinces such as Nakhon Ratchasima, Chaing Mai and Buriram.

In the northeastern province of Nakhon Ratchasima, pro and antigovernment groups held rallies next to each other near Suranaree Monument. Police was told to be on high alert to help prevent a potential clash.

Prapas Ngoksungnone, a leader of the antigovernment rally, accused the government of failing to tackle the hardship of farmers.

The government has committed massive corruption and acted as a proxy of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, he said, adding that his group held the rally to protest against the use of force against unarmed protesters in Bangkok.

Pol Col Boonlert Wongwatchana said more than 50 police were deployed at Suranaree Monument.

In Khon Kaen, some 20 teacher groups issued a statement in support of Samak and condemning the PAD.

Niyom Sriwiset, a teacher leader, said Khon Kaen teachers disagreed with the PAD and wanted the government to restore order.

In Roi Et, some 1,000 provincial DAAD members also demonstrated in support of Samak.

In Buri Ram, PPP MP Sanong Thepaksornnarong led more than 10,000 people from 23 districts in a rally at the Muang district office supporting Samak.

In Chiang Mai, some 500 people led by Phetchawat Wattanapongsirikul, chairman of the Federation of Northern People for Democracy, also demonstrated at city hall in support of the government.

The Nation Sept 1, 2008

[KoratCat]

Death on the street

The army stepped in early on Tuesday after pro-government demonstrators attacked opponents occupying Government House and killed at least one protester from the People's Alliance for Democracy. The government declared a State of Emergency, effectively putting the army in control of security throughout the capital

The emergency decree said restrictions had been imposed on media reports that "undermined public security". (Disclosure: No restrictions were place on this report nor on others on this web site on Tuesday morning.)

Shortly after dawn, and after a night of clashes, Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej imposed a state of emergency on Bangkok. The announcement said Army Gen. Anupong Paojinda would be in charge of administering the emergency, and armed forces would have full police powers.

The Emergency Decree specifically prohibits the gathering of more than five people for a protest, and could be used to force PAD protesters to disperse or be arrested.

Spokesmen for the United front of Democracy against Dictatorship immediately announced they will end their rally centered at Sanam Luang. "We will obey the law and go home."

Suriyasai Katasila, the chief ideologue for the People's Alliance for Democracy, said the PAD leaders would consult on their next move.

The army commander stepped in after one man was killed and another 34 people were injured in the clashes between the UDD and the PAD, rusing four companies of about 400 soldiers to the scene.

"Soldiers must leave the barracks to help restore peace," said the army chief, Gen Anupong. Troops were armed with batons and shields as they arrived at the scene.

Police chief Pol Gen Patcharavat Wongsuwan said the army help was only temporary. There are enough police, he said, and he predicted there would be no state of emergency. He turned out to be completely wrong.

A senior police officer at the scene, who requested anonymity, told the AFP news agency:

"Thousands of protesters from Sanam Luang went to the scene and clashed.

"There were reports of gunfire, but police cannot confirm who fired or how many were injured. The police took about 15 minutes to break up the groups."

The dead man was shot in the chest and beaten around the head, reporters at the scene said. Friends said he was a PAD supporters from Nakhon Ratchasima, who had only arrived in Bangkok on Tuesday with a busload of friends, to support the demonstrations aimed at forcing the government to resign.

The condition of the other, injured protesters could not immediately be learned.

Dr Petchpong Kamjornkijjakarn, head of the Bangkok emergency unit of the Public Health Ministry, told reporters that the dead man and another protester had suffered gunshot wounds during the skirmishes. He put the number of injured at 34, and said four were in critical condition.

The clash occurred when police yet again failed to hold their lines separating pro- and anti-government protesters near Government House.

Shortly before 2am, attacking groups trying to oust the PAD crowds from Government House broke through the police lines to confront PAD guards. Both sides were mostly wearing motorcycle helmets and carrying sticks, clubs and PVC pipes.

After the army appeared on the scene quickly, order was restored and the two sides retreated.

The declaration is the first use of a controversial new Emergency Law passed in the dying days of the military government late last year.

It never has been used, and its use takes Thailand another giant step into previously uncharted political waters.

In charge of Bangkok security effective immediately is the Internal Security Operations Command, or Isoc. Mr Samak is the nominal head of Isoc, although the army and special Isoc commands will run its operations.

Hours before the clash, PAD core leader Sondhi Limthongkul charged that government MPs were paying anti-PAD demonstrators and bringing them to Bangkok by bus.

He claimed the "thugs" of the United front of Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) were being paid 200 baht a day.

"We will just hold the fort in a very peaceful way," said Sondhi. Early Tuesday morning that promise proved fruitless.

Bangkok Post Sept. 2, 2008

[KoratCat]

Thailand's Prime Minister Samak declares State of Emergency in Bangkok

BANGKOK, Sept 2 (TNA) - Thai Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej declared a State of Emergency in the capital of Bangkok after violent overnight clashes between supporters of pro-and anti-government group of protesters that left one dead and over 30 injured.

The prime minister announced enforcements of an Emergency Decree on Public Administration in Emergency Situations in Bangkok, hours after clashes in the streets between supporters of the pro-government National United front of Democracy against Dictatorship (DAAD) and the anti-government -People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) that staged the protest for 100 days on Monday.

There was one person dead and over 30 injured after fighting which mainly occurred on Ratchadamneon
Nok Avenue where the PAD staged another rally beside the Government House compound.

The decree bans gatherings of more than five persons and as well as media dissemination of news
likely to panic the public or instigate violence.

Army chief Gen. Anupong Paochinda was appointed to head the emergency decree enforcement team in Bangkok while National Police Chief and First Regional Army Commander are his deputies.

Pro-government protesters appeared to disperse soon after learning of the emergency decree announcement.

However, the PAD defied the State of Emergency, saying that the they would continue holding the Government House compound and protesting against the government until the prime minister resigns.

Schools in the vicinity of the clash areas announced their closure for an indefinite period. Thammasat University, Tha Prachan campus also announced a one day closure.

The clashes broke out after the members of the pro-government group which rallied at Sanam Luang, and then moved to the Makhawan Rangsan Bridge where the PAD has been staging its anti-government rally.

Armed with batons, clubs and homemade weapons, the two sides fought on the avenue and connecting roads, chasing and beating their opponents.

One person died from severe injuries and others were in serious condition, some hospitalised with gunshot wounds.

Police were unsuccessful in stopping the street fighting, but afterward army troops in riot gear were assigned
to help, and the situation appeared to be calm. (TNA)

MCOT Sept. 2, 2008